Boring Naval rules

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ergion

Boring Naval rules

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Posts: 281

(05-19-09 10:15:27)

Devoti Custodes

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I think the rules of this naval tournament are booring; all teams must play with 2th rates full upgraded: same units, same armies and logically very similar tactics. I usually play with medium funds in Early Era and battles are great.

Tomi says

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(05-19-09 10:35:11)

Ronin Warlords
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I was thinking the same thing last night when posting them, but no time to review and alter them then.

Any suggestions welcome.

CeltiberoLerend

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(05-19-09 15:50:05)

Celtiberos

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It would be better if we change to hard westerly wind instead of moderate Westerly Breeze. Now ships are slow and battles are long.

Tomi says

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(05-19-09 23:49:54)

Ronin Warlords
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Can do that.

Is there anything else?

Only want to make one change posting

RTKDinadan

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(05-20-09 12:28:31)

Round Table Knights

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Devoti Custodes are back to the naval competition?

ergion

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(05-20-09 18:02:37)

Devoti Custodes

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Hi, Dinadan.

About the naval rules, what do you think?

Shurikenjitsu

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(05-20-09 19:46:20)

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You ban Galley and Light Galley I hope Ergion.

RAPAX Brutus

ergion

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(05-20-09 21:15:45)

Devoti Custodes

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Do you think gallleys are ov, Brutus? I think no but it`s possible. I have recruited some of them and no see a great power, but If you are talking about a great galley spam... Do you have any replays?

Tomi says

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(05-21-09 02:10:54)

Ronin Warlords
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My suggestions for the Third Round:

Strong Breeze: Westerly (never Northerly)

Ships of the Line only, no Admiral's Flagships.

Only one of each Rate, with No upgrades.

Will this be acceptable?

The Next Round, no Rates. But we can discuss this later.

Shurikenjitsu

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(05-21-09 08:43:53)

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X Ergion,

I don't have replays, but just try to have a looks around, there are several posts-topics about them. They are evidently ov.

X Tomi,

Personally I find the Naval battles very enjoyable, sometimes they are boring, but just in some movement phases, and I think is not true with same Ships you use always same tactics. Playing Naval involve to change your actions-tactic several times during the battle, according the situation generated.

Any setup you will choose will not change this, just will give more variety in ships used.

RAPAX Brutus

Last Edited By: Shurikenjitsu 05-21-09 08:49:38. Edited 1 times.

CeltiberoLerend

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(05-21-09 15:45:43)

Celtiberos

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Shurikenjitsu wrote:

... I think is not true with same Ships you use always same tactics. Playing Naval involve to change your actions-tactic several times during the battle, according the situation generated.
Any setup you will choose will not change this, just will give more variety in ships used.

RAPAX Brutus

I agree with Brutus´ point and i´d add that we´d kill at all the few chances we have now to use groups if we mix different ships with different speeds among them.
One thing is sure, everybody would like can play without any kind of limits and with all the game parameters working ok. But now, the reality forces us to adapt which we have in our hands...

ergion

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(05-22-09 00:39:28)

Devoti Custodes

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I don't have replays, but just try to have a looks around, there are several posts-topics about them. They are evidently ov.

Yes, I have see posts in one Spanish forum but I am not agree with them.

People usually see the galley firepower in the recruitment phase and compare for example with 2 rate firepower in the recruitmen phase room: if we compare, galley have a bigger firepower than other ships, but it´s not true. If you go to the battle stats you can see the real firepower of other ships it´s bigger than galleys.

I don´t know the formula with exactitude, but the firepower we can see in the recruitmen room is related with the power of each individual cannon of the ship and the firepower we can see in the battle unit card is related with the total number of cannons in both broad sides of the ship.

In conclusion: galleys have good heavy cannons, but only have 2 or 4. By other hand we can see fire ranges are indentical in galleys and rates.

In some games I played I have recruited galleys and I am not see a great advantage for them, they are very weak and hard to use because they can fire only since front side.

About wind

I think can be good change intensity of the wind in some rounds alternatively.

Rules:

Tomi, In my opinion the best option is to choose a rules that favor a minimum flexibility for recruit with minimal rules. Land battles could be tactical and funny if in a 4vs4 each player play with for example 6 infantry guards,ok, I am agree because I saw in past a lot of games with "only infantry" rule, but I prefer play with other units types too. Present rules only allow choose 2th rates if you want victory.

Some examples:

-Late Era medium funds: you can see First rate normal, First rate heavy, second rate flag ships, 2th rates and its possible some 3th rates. Usually I have seen 4-6 ships per player. (Rockets ships with 1.2 patch are very expensive than past version but if you stil think they still overpowered...)

-Early Era medium funds: You usually see second and third rates with the posibility of see some galeons and similar, 4th or 5th rates and other minor ships. Generally you see 6-8 ships per player.

I know people say that play with 6-8 ships per player can cause lag problems, but I think the laggers cause lag with 2,4 or 6 ships per player. Anyways CA is working hard to polish the naval optimization (May 18/19th ):

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/53425?page=2

I don´t understand why CWC, a tournament that usually allows a great flexibility with rules (players usually said that CWC default battle rules are "no rules") with naval battles is too restrictive.

Last Edited By: ergion 05-22-09 00:46:30. Edited 2 times.

Tomi says

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(05-22-09 02:13:49)

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ergion wrote:

I don´t understand why CWC, a tournament that usually allows a great flexibility with rules (players usually said that CWC default battle rules are "no rules") with naval battles is too restrictive.

Very true, we have gotten away from default "no rules".

With Empire this may have been more of an encouragement issue than anything else.

With an entirely new game and a highly doubting community, some guidelines helped sell the idea that we could actually have a contest.

The rules we started with has to some degree been devalued by patch corrections along the way.

And the rate those upgrades changes, plus the compressed time-line of this supper-sized competition (starting with 40 Teams in 40 Matches), have made this all very hard to keep up with.

We can't go back and start over, but we can make modifications as we go, as long as everyone will accept a floating rule-set.

My suggestion was a step in that modification direction.

Let me repeat for your consideration, applying to the Third Round only (more to come).

Strong Breeze: Westerly

Ships of the Line only, no Admiral's Flagships.

Only one of each Rate, with No upgrades

That means that every player will have to bring one 2nd, one 3rd, one 4th, and in some cases also one 5th Rate Ship of the Line.

We are further into the contest now, and folks need to get out of their comfort zones, and improve their skills to win.

Next will be the non-Rates, and even more mastery needed to survive.

I am trying to make it so that whoever wins this Naval contest, will truly be Masters of the Empire seas, in all respects.

Maybe in the next contest we can open the possibilities up with a no rules game from the start, but for now I believe it is best to widen our scope a little at a time.

Last Edited By: Tomi says 05-22-09 02:16:07. Edited 1 times.

ergion

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(05-22-09 09:56:12)

Devoti Custodes

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Strong Breeze: Westerly :

Well.

Ships of the Line only, no Admiral's Flagships.

If we play with the money limit and no with ship max limit this rule become useless.

Only one of each Rate, with No upgrades

I think this rule you propose have is the opposite effect to the present rule, but imo this is not good because continue being a too restrictive rule. I think people should could recruit ships more freely.

On the other hand non upgrades rule have a problem: it´s very dificult control upgrades them because I can´t see graphics differences between upgraded and non upgraded ships, this issue added to the no existence of logs...

Tomi says

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(05-22-09 11:36:21)

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Imo, the Funds levels in the game are only convenience for the programmer, and really are one of the major failures of this game. You can't use them to regulate anything, only to provide two maximum cap amounts that should have been paired directly with the Time Periods, but were not.

I suggest in this case that we take control and limit a different way; the type of ships.

The default rule is 4 ships per player because this is the limit that the game can realistically handle in a 4v4 internet game. This was tested at one point, and generally accepted by all I believe. If capability has been improved to reliably do better, I haven't heard about it yet.

The no Upgrades could be removed, I see your point.

And please don't loose my point, that this is only for one Round, not for the rest of the the contest, or any other contest. It is a step in a different direction.

Last Edited By: Tomi says 05-22-09 23:31:11. Edited 1 times.

Shurikenjitsu

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(05-22-09 14:07:33)

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Ergion, don't look at stats. Play against them. Playing campaign, people is forced to use autoresolve in Naval battles, to avoid loosing from them or in best case have unreasonable loss of money, since your good rate ships will sink

http://clanwars3540.yuku.com/topic/985

Brutus

ergion

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(05-22-09 14:26:40)

Devoti Custodes

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Ergion, don't look at stats. Play against them. Playing campaign, people is forced to use autoresolve in Naval battles, to avoid loosing from them or in best case have unreasonable loss of money, since your good rate ships will sink

http://clanwars3540.yuku.com/topic/985

Brutus

Yes, you are right, they look too cheap.

CeltiberoLerend

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(05-23-09 01:56:10)

Celtiberos

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Tomi says wrote:

Only one of each Rate, with No upgrades

That means that every player will have to bring one 2nd, one 3rd, one 4th, and in some cases also one 5th Rate Ship of the Line.

We are further into the contest now, and folks need to get out of their comfort zones, and improve their skills to win.

If we mix 4 different ships with different speeds among them don´t you think we´ll loose the few chances we have to use groups? I would like so much to play with lots of different ships grouped and non-grouped but the reality sadly is which it is, and that thing can only be done playing 1vs1 battles.
One middle solution could be mixing different rates but among players. For example, 1 player with four 2nd, another one with four 5th, 6th, etc. so we´d see more variety and new tactics.

Tomi says

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(05-23-09 13:14:52)

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Yes, completely forgot about that, sorry!

So for now it would only make things more difficult.

Thinking in terms of single ship types, we could restrict a Round to Rates, or Galleons, or Steamships, without incurring grouping discrepancies. Will that work?

About:Strong Breeze: Westerly

Is this truly effective in speeding up the game, or does it just add to the potential for ships to get spread out more, costing more time in the end?

Last Edited By: Tomi says 05-23-09 15:33:51. Edited 2 times.

Shurikenjitsu

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(05-23-09 16:08:28)

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